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Registered: 02-2004
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


ok here is my thought on this subject matter.

just for those of you whom do not know or have not figured out yet i am a huge murdoch fan.....
that does not mean i am of one mind when it comes to him.

i realized rigth from the atart he was human as we all are.

he also came from a loooonnngg line of seamen.
it was something will has wanted to do since he was a child ... there is no disputing that. i can not say nor will i say that he took his own life or that he did not take his own life...
i will not do this for 2 reasons.
 1] it is none of my business
 2] if he did take his own life then it is his own doings and nothing can be done to change that it is his business he was after all an adult very capapble of making up his own mind.

there is various stories pointing to the possibility and then the same pointing to that fact that he didnt.

again we will never know. if he did choose to take his own life then he did it thinking there was no other way out for him however none of us know what was going on in his mind so again we can not assume anything.

it would be great to think that he did not however we will never be able to say for sure so there is always going to be this question remaining.
whom committed suicide?
if he did then he must have been very upset for it is serious when someone takes their own life or attempts too it is a cry for help.

anyway .
the fact when all is said and done
william murdoch was a human being with the same emotions you and i have he was no different. when it came to him dying the thought of whether or not he could have handled dying in the ocean or if he had to take his own life then that was all up to him.

and he died that night so he was very heroic no matter what..
that is my thoughts on this subject.
wills


---
Suicide is a permenant solution to a temporay problem........

Whatever obstacles control,
Go on, true heart,
thou'lt reach the goal.


http://com4.runboard.com/bthetitanicshack
wills~~~~~
Apr/7/2004, 11:13 pm Link to this post Send Email to wills   Send PM to wills Blog
 
graham 01 Profile
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


hi All

May I make a few comments here regarding shooting or lack of shootings.

First as Wills says Murdoch may or may not be the officer
who shot himself, But this does lead to a leading question, Do we really know someone shot himself. in all the arguments on this subject for some great big reason Murdoch always seems to be the one who they say has to of done. why. Sorry but I do not see any evidence as to a shooting let alone a suicide of a officer.

Wills is also correct that if a shooting did happen in reality it is not our or anyone's business but there own. Nothing can be done to change fact, but things can be done to stop innuendoes etc. I am not in a position to stop these as is no one else here. This is why when this subject comes up I tend to dodge it in the most, But this time I would like to hit a few things head on for the benefit of people here.

I sense that this post was very hard for Wills to write, not because of the depth of it but because it is a taboo subject to most people. Also Wills thinks a lot about the person involved and wants to show her thoughts towards that person, I think that is very commendable and hope wills takes that the correct way.

Wills is also correct in the fact she states there is various stories pointing towards it and against it. Again a cross section of beliefs, And it is just that beliefs.

And again what Wills says about us never knowing is spot on. For a person to take his/her own life a number of factors have to be considered. One and most important one Why? Second there has to be assumed there is no other way out. In the case of Murdoch we have to ask why? The balance of the mind is often unbalanced and I see no reason to believe this to be the case here so again why? They may want to move on to a better place , I doubt in Murdochs case this is so somehow.

I will cover all the above shortly, But Wills also says it would be great to think he did not do it. I agree with you as we all think our idols, I don't use that patronising or anyway like that at all. would not do such a thing.

Ok so on to the questions, Why would he think he had to take his own life? Like Wills points out he may of preferred to die by own hand than that of God. Sailors where and are a funny breed. Superstitious to the hilt. The fact he would also know what was ahead. Cold water, thirst hunger etc. if the rescue ship did not get to them, He was also the ranking officer there, He was going to shoulder the wrath of a court. He knew the Captain would not survive. He was also in charge when the accident happened. Somewhere I read that he did not hand a sinking ship over to Smith, this is very true he handed over a damaged ship.

So no other way out maybe. There was the water and boats possibly. The water was ice cold and he more than anyone would know the cold kills a horrid death. Boats well he stopped on the ship till end where was the boats? Is he going to make one or die in the attempt.

Was his mind unbalanced? I doubt it but then again we don't really know, Peoples mind snap at certain things and often the smallest thing may be the catalyst for this. But he was a sailor well educated, long standing career. I doubt someone with a slight unbalance would of been there in his position.

finally wants to end it all. The most common of suicide thoughts. Again why. That one I cannot answer but doubt it.

Wills also says it is a cry for help. Yes unfortunately in some and probably a lot of cases yes it is.

More to follow

Graham


---
Why dont people do what they say nowadays http://www.freewebs.com/hms-kellington/
http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/index.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/hmsroyaloak/
Apr/8/2004, 11:42 am Link to this post Send Email to graham 01   Send PM to graham 01 Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


Hi again all

Ok on to the point of a cry for help.

It is often said that suicide is a cry for help. Sorry but that is the incorrect use of the words. Attempted suicide is a cry for help or threatening suicide. But to commit suicide most people who do it and regardless what we all think is not many, do it in private locations, Alone, and usually make there reasons well known by means of a letter or other form.

A short story for you to try to explain a little bit of what I mean.

A few years ago I was involved in a case where a woman had listened to her mother who had come out of a coma. She spoke of death freely and almost wanted it to happen. But in her coma she had spoke to her mother who had also told her of the exact time she would die and day. This lady did believe in such things at the time and was not so much upset but happy for her mother as she had always wanted to tell her mother things she had not done while she was alive.

The lady died at the exact time she said and on the day she mentioned.

Ok you ask what has this to do with suicide. well A year or so after this the young lady missed her mother and needed her so much she overdosed on tablets. It turned out later that she did not really want to commit suicide nor was it a cry for help as such, it was because she hoped liked her mother had done she would be able to talk to her mother as well again for one last time and tell her all the things she had not done. Ask for advice etc.

So now I am rambling. But my point is that I have not seen any evidence for Murdoch to shoot himself or any other officer for that matter.

Changing moods lets look at guns on board.

If someone comes towards you with a gun in there hand it would likely make you worry. This is the reason guns are carried on board ship, apart from the obvious of pirates. But it is to control panic ( I don't think I should of used that word but there we go) When the end of a ship is becoming close and people realise they are not going to get of there is generally a rush for boats or survival tools. A sailor may have to fire in the air, this will stop people from rushing forward and so stop panic. Daft in a way a panic related item cas stop the same thing happening.

Thanks for been so patient with me while I did this one and now I hand back over to Wills and all

Regards
Graham

---
Why dont people do what they say nowadays http://www.freewebs.com/hms-kellington/
http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/index.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/hmsroyaloak/
Apr/8/2004, 11:57 am Link to this post Send Email to graham 01   Send PM to graham 01 Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


hi all,

graham thank you for the kind words and the explanations ..

you are right it was hard for me to write..
as you stated he had a long career and was well educated. it doesnt fit...

as far as no proof of suicide that is correct too.

there are more that 2,200 different stories as to what actually happened that night..
it does not mean and i want to stress that [does not mean] that they are all lies . it also doesnt meant they are all true...

when someone is in distress doesnt matter what it is they tend to think differently . they may see a man in a grey shirt at the time of the distress but later swear it was a white shirt ... the mind tends to protect us when we need it to. at least to a point ... when we are upset in any way we tend to loose focus on what we were doing previously. it happens to everyone no exceptions. everyone sees things in different ways and that i believe is why it is so hard to pin point 1 fact from another in the titanic disaster. this is also where the mistaken identities come from and the misleadings and ect....come from.
when one person says something to another they tend to spread it around and that makes it difficult because you know every person that was told before you couldnt have remembered the exact words the first person [the one whom started the rumor] actually said.
it is a play on words so to speak.

sad but it does happen.

wills


---
Suicide is a permenant solution to a temporay problem........

Whatever obstacles control,
Go on, true heart,
thou'lt reach the goal.


http://com4.runboard.com/bthetitanicshack
wills~~~~~
Apr/8/2004, 9:53 pm Link to this post Send Email to wills   Send PM to wills Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


hi Wills

No problem on kind words etc.

I could sense from the way it was wrote it was a hard one for you and a deep thoughtful one as well.

I agree with you there are many sites out there with different things on regarding this topic. Some are credible others not so much. Again it is in the eye of the reader who in cases like this make there own mind up weather correct or not.

In many forums and web sites people put there point forward but I am unable to really as I have yet found no proof either way. Too many things happened that night and too much contradicting evidence was published and spoke.

The inquiry's read like a book in some places and is all to easy to miss things when quoting them as the reader writer is pointing the bit he believes to be truth against what someone else may of read and also believes.

I once did a database of a certain question and found 15 different answers to one question. How is one supposed to believe the answer when non said the same thing?

On the suicide no one actually would of seen it in reality, not the living anyway. Suicide does not happen like that. It is something you do on your own not in public. To do it in public is a total different thing. And most of the time it is to prove a point on something. But as I say it is a definite different thing.

What you refer to in the end of your post is what we call chimes whispers. The first person whispers something to a next person and he she passes it on the story or fact is so different at the end of the chain. And yes this does happen. Plus the fact on the night in question people did see different versions of events. They saw what they wanted to see. No disrespect to the evidence but it is tainted with what they really wanted to happen or occur. Hero's where maid and villains where made overnight. How we depict them is our own insight into humanity.

Have you noticed in the inquest on both sides no one mentions rats. We all know rats leave a sinking ship, now titanic was new so would not have many. But where where the ones she did have. I find it hard to believe no one saw them. ( if it is mentioned I apologise as I have not read them for ages now)

How many times has contradictions been made about who was in a lifeboat. Again there was people in them never disputed but they alter vastly depending on what account you read.

Hope this made sense somewhere along the line

Graham

---
Why dont people do what they say nowadays http://www.freewebs.com/hms-kellington/
http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/index.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/hmsroyaloak/
Apr/9/2004, 8:06 am Link to this post Send Email to graham 01   Send PM to graham 01 Blog
 
wills Profile
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


you are right on my friend once again..
i think you know me pretty good there graham.


yes it was hard for me to write that.
it is difficult to say something about a person you hold very high. he was a great seaman and he loved the ocean that is very clear in his actions throughout his career at sea... he was very good in difficult siutations and was know to have iron nerves and cat-like reflexes.... that in my mind makes it rather difficult for me to believe he would do something like that..... however there is like i said earlier there is a big lack of circumstantial evidence that we can go on ....

there for it is simply just gossip ... or hearsay ....

in william's defense as well the same people that said it was him were also most of the same people that said titanic sank in one piece...hmmmmm now that is food for thought.

like i said also in another post i will believe it when he himself tells me and we all know that will never happen....
however if proof can be given hard proof then it may be considered.... however i really do not think it any of my business to know ... i mean i can not change history .. it is there to be learned from ....

it is a difficult subject for me to talk about yes....
however i am open minded on all subject matters pertaining too titanic and murdoch included...
it is always interesting to hear others thoughts....

wills

---
Suicide is a permenant solution to a temporay problem........

Whatever obstacles control,
Go on, true heart,
thou'lt reach the goal.


http://com4.runboard.com/bthetitanicshack
wills~~~~~
Apr/10/2004, 3:23 am Link to this post Send Email to wills   Send PM to wills Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


now i would like to clear something up from my previous post...

my statement about the fact that they were the same people that said titanic sank in one piece was not to discredit those individuals in any way shape or form...

it is however a better way to look at this ..
titanic was a large ship therefore not all people were not in the right spot to see her break but most of them claimed she didnt anyway....
so again we have to try and place who was where and who was with them and at what time.
can this person be reliable so on and so forth..

i really think that the inquiries really didnt prove nothing much ... it was just a way for the government to be in the public ...

i think that people were able to distinguish anything in either of them...
yes we found out that titanic hit an iceberg and things like that however we could have figured that out on our own.

so many factors come into play here and i really think that this is why titnaic has remained an enormous part of our history and our lives. why we keep comming back to her no matter what road we have taken.

wills

---
Suicide is a permenant solution to a temporay problem........

Whatever obstacles control,
Go on, true heart,
thou'lt reach the goal.


http://com4.runboard.com/bthetitanicshack
wills~~~~~
Apr/10/2004, 3:32 am Link to this post Send Email to wills   Send PM to wills Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


Hi Wills

Well said and put forward my friend

I agree with you that these people where the self and same who honestly believed the ship went down whole, This can also be placed in the fact that peoples perception of a ship sinking is that it just disappears from the top of the water to the bottom, sorry to put it crudely there.

In this I mean if you ask someone to show you with a model boat how a ship sinks they would normally just push it under and not say well it may break up or this that and another. Same theory is applied to a child when asked to draw a house. They all draw a two story house chimney at the top curly smoke with doors windows and garden, What makes this interesting is the fact they may of never lived in this type of house such as in Africa where houses are totally different.

I know your subject Wills and respect your decision on posting so knew it was a hard one for you, Plus your writing gave it away as well.

It also has to be said on the night of the sinking people did not know till last minuet what was going on in reality. They where not looking to make notes of facts plus like I said no a previous post most people who could of given the best accounts of what happened later did not survive.

Regards
Graham

---
Why dont people do what they say nowadays http://www.freewebs.com/hms-kellington/
http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/index.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/hmsroyaloak/
Apr/10/2004, 8:28 am Link to this post Send Email to graham 01   Send PM to graham 01 Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


you are right graham,

everyone percieves things very differently.

ect, sinking and the houses you spoke of.

i really believe that things would have been rather different if the passengers actually knew right away that titanic was going to founder .

i believe that is the main reason why they were not told about it.

anyway i believe i am just rambling ....must be the pain killers lol.

so maybe later i will make a bit more sence.
wills


---
Suicide is a permenant solution to a temporay problem........

Whatever obstacles control,
Go on, true heart,
thou'lt reach the goal.


http://com4.runboard.com/bthetitanicshack
wills~~~~~
Apr/10/2004, 11:27 pm Link to this post Send Email to wills   Send PM to wills Blog
 
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Re: What ever happened to Will Murdoch, & why didn't he...


Hi Wills

You always make sence and I tend to agree if the passengers had been told the truth from the start I think quite a lot of things would of been different.

Graham

---
Why dont people do what they say nowadays http://www.freewebs.com/hms-kellington/
http://www.freewebs.com/graham7760/index.htm
http://www.freewebs.com/hmsroyaloak/
Apr/12/2004, 1:24 pm Link to this post Send Email to graham 01   Send PM to graham 01 Blog
 


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