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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Hello,

I'm not disputing that Olympic began to show some signs of age by 1930, although I am saying that existing documentation contradicts the claim that her seaworthiness certification was 'limited' to six months from 1932. I don't regard 'temporary' patches as an entirely accurate description, since there was a difference of opinion between professional engineers in the 1930s. With regard to the confidential list, although many people know about the Olympic being on the list, it's often overlooked that ships like Aquitania, Berengaria, Leviathan and Majestic were also on the list -- many of them earlier than Olympic.

With regard to the 1932 report, if I remember rightly it's mentioned in my Olympic class ships book -- which you appear to be using as a profile picture -- and in more detail in my RMS Olympic book. It is possible for a ship to be showing some signs of age, yet -- in general terms -- continue to be considered to be in an overall good condition once her age is taken into account.

Olympic exceeded 23 knots many times during her career, and yes there is documentation existing from a 1933 log -- that's what I base the claim on. After the 1932 refit, many engineers on Olympic stated that her engines were performing better than ever.

I've not disputed anything Brian Hawley says, and am aware of his website.

With regard to Olympic's history, she did exceed her maiden voyage speed on a number of occasions. Indeed, after 1920 her speed frequently improved as she grew older.

Best wishes,

Mark.

---
Mark Chirnside,
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0752428683/qid=1058710005/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_0_3/026-7843481-4858066
http://www.hospitalshipbritannic.com/menu.htm
Jul/6/2005, 10:37 am Link to this post Send Email to Mark Chirnside   Send PM to Mark Chirnside MSN
 
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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Hello,

Yes, I am aware however it is common sense to beleive that aging would effect the Olympic in a rather negative manner. As far as these documents are concered, is there anywhere I can go to see them? As for the patches, it is those engineers opinions that decided what would happen to Olympic - providing she had been inspected by them. Everyone is not only entitled to their own opinion (even now) but they usually have it. The patches, as previously stated were used as a cover, the idea being age has taken its toll on the Olympic. Although there were other ships on the confidential list, it does not change the fact that Olympic was indeed placed on it.

The picture of what appears to be Titanic on what is indeed your book is one of my favorites. Nice selection! I hope you don't mind me using it sir? I really like it. Although it is possible for a ship to show signs of aging and regardless, when her age is added into the equation, considered to be fit, is this what happened in the Olympic's case? Would a ship's age, only providing it sailed for so many years make up for faults or damage in her structure? I would doubt it myself. Although, I do see where you are comming from, it may be so.

I know You have not disputed Anything Brian Hawley has stated, however I saw it fit to mention his idea in regards to the Olympic.

The refit, was it before or after the report had been issued or carried out?

She may have exceeded 23 knots, but is it likley that she did after the report? I mean, the emphasis is on the aging process, not her overall carrer.

Thank you,

James

edited by Mr Titanic, Aug/5/2005, 1:46 am


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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Hello James,

It's good to hear from you, I'd forgotten about this discussion. I’m not disputing that Olympic was on the confidential list. Since you seem to be interested in the Olympic, I thought you might find it of interest to know that her contemporaries were also on the list – something that doesn’t seem to be common knowledge. This, naturally, helps to put the Olympic’s history in perspective. I also pointed out what I believed to be a few historical inaccuracies (in my opinion) from the original source that you quoted in your first post to this thread, coming from the FAQ Olympic Class Timeline on the ET forum. Nor am I saying that people are not entitled to different opinions. Far from it.

For instance, we’ve talked about the limitation of speed to 21 knots after 1932 (something which I don’t believe happened), yet although the evidence for that is thin (see my article on the [sign in to see URL] website) it is generally spoken of as if it were a certainty. The FAQ timeline does not mention that. Indeed, there’s a body of evidence that contradicts the ‘limitation of speed,’ such as the Olympic’s speed in 1933-35 (see below).

>> She may have exceeded 23 knots, but is it likley that she did after the report? I mean, the emphasis is on the aging process, not her overall carrer <<

I’m not quite sure which year’s report you’re referring to, but the log which shows the speed of over 23 knots was from August 1933 – after the late 1932-early 1933 refit and the supposed ‘limitation’ to 21 knots. In 1923, Olympic averaged around 21.4 knots for the year and her average speed for 1934 stood at about 21.4 or 21.5 knots as well. Other years show an average of 21.6 and 21.7 knots, yet there’s no drastic slowdown evident in the Olympic’s speed performance. As you’ll know from my Olympic class book, there are many recorded instances of Olympic averaging well over 21 knots in the 1933-35 period. Indeed, her penultimate eastbound voyage averaged [sign in to see URL] knots, which compares well to her maiden eastbound voyage which averaged [sign in to see URL] knots.

I hope you’ll forgive the ‘plug’ as it were, but my RMS Olympic book has most of my information: pages 225-27 cover the ship’s surveys from 1926-34; and pages 234-36 cover the engine work in 1932, and a brief discussion of the ship’s speed. The refit itself continues on into 1933, and the next chapter which begins in spring 1933. Naturally, that was written when I had all of the material to hand – something which I don’t have right now as I reply to your post. So, that can perhaps best answer some of your questions.

>> As far as these documents are concerned, is there anywhere I can go to see them?<<

The Olympic book reproduces portions of the 1927 and 1934 surveys that you can read for yourself, and some of the information from the White Star Line whose engineers also inspected Olympic – from the Cunard-White Star archives and the national archives, where much of the material is. From what I remember, the White Star engineer felt that the Olympic was in better shape than one of the Board of Trade’s surveyors, but I don’t have the reference handy.

>> The picture of what appears to be Titanic on what is indeed your book is one of my favorites. Nice selection! I hope you don't mind me using it sir? I really like it.<<

Strictly speaking, you could say it’s a free advertisement so I don’t mind too much. ;-) Actually, my editor chose it – although I wanted to shift some of the focus onto the sister ships, having Titanic on a book cover does wonders in getting it noticed.

>> Although it is possible for a ship to show signs of aging and regardless, when her age is added into the equation, considered to be fit, is this what happened in the Olympic's case?<<

I’m not quite sure I understand your exact question, but I think I’ve got the gist. In my opinion, it’s true that Olympic was showing signs of age as she got older; it is true that, in 1931, there were concerns by the Board of Trade that the repairs would prove effective only temporarily (concerns subsequently proven unfounded, IMHO); but it’s also true that she was generally in as good a condition as could be expected given the ship’s service history. In 1928, for instance, during a survey, the ship’s scantlings appeared so well maintained that they did not require ‘drilling’ to test their soundness.

On the other hand, I don’t consider it true that these signs of fatigue were as serious as has sometimes been made out; I don’t think the Olympic was limited to 21 knots after 1932; I do think that the 1931 repairs proved more effective than they have had credit for; and I don’t think that it was Olympic’s structural condition that played the key part in the decision to scrap her. Thomas Ward’s actually noted, during demolition, that the Olympic’s then 27-year-old hull, in particular, was ‘surprisingly sound’ and if I remember rightly it took a little longer to demolish her than had been expected.

I’m afraid I’m quite short of time and I’ll have to cut this short. I hope I’ve been of some help in clarifying my opinions, but I’m sorry I don’t have time for a more detailed discussion.

Best wishes,

Mark.

---
Mark Chirnside,
UK.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0752428683/qid=1058710005/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_0_3/026-7843481-4858066
http://www.hospitalshipbritannic.com/menu.htm
Aug/5/2005, 11:31 am Link to this post Send Email to Mark Chirnside   Send PM to Mark Chirnside MSN
 
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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Your opinions make much sense to me. And yes after some detail I can understand where you are comming from. It would seem right that her speed would be reduced providing her age would indeed cause problems in her structure, especially the viabration troubles in her lower plating. So although she was equipped with more powerful engines, would they not effect these areas, exceeding 21 knots? What I do notice now however is, if the speed was restricted to 21 knots, why would a refit have taken place afterwards? So I suppose your opinion could have some truth to it, unless there was damage to the engines? I wonder why they didn't solve the issue with the Olympic's structure, I beleive to have fixed this problem it would have cost so much , and the final decition to scrap her (especially providing the Cunard was to build the Queen Mary) took effect. Mark, do you know what was the fate of the Olymic's steel? Was it used to build the Queen Mary as recycled material (Just curious, would be interesting to know).

Thank you! (I hope I'm not a bother with all my questions lol)

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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Hello James,

I don't quite understand your first few questions. For instance:

>> So although she was equipped with more powerful engines, would they not effect these areas, exceeding 21 knots?<<

Olympic's engines were never replaced with more powerful engines. I mention the engine work (and the myth about vibration damage) in the Olympic class book, which you have.

>>I wonder why they didn't solve the issue with the Olympic's structure, I beleive to have fixed this problem it would have cost so much , and the final decition to scrap her (especially providing the Cunard was to build the Queen Mary) took effect.<<

In light of the tough economic times of the early 1930s, and the continuing strength of the 1931 repairs.

>>Mark, do you know what was the fate of the Olymic's steel? Was it used to build the Queen Mary as recycled material (Just curious, would be interesting to know).<<

Queen Mary was launched in 1934, before Olympic was scrapped, so it wasn't used in her hull. She made her maiden voyage in 1936, and Olympic's superstructure hadn't been dismantled until 1936. I cover the process in some detail in the RMS Olympic book.

Best wishes,

Mark.

---
Mark Chirnside,
UK.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0752428683/qid=1058710005/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_0_3/026-7843481-4858066
http://www.hospitalshipbritannic.com/menu.htm
Aug/6/2005, 9:52 am Link to this post Send Email to Mark Chirnside   Send PM to Mark Chirnside MSN
 
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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


If the viabration effects are a myth than that pretty much answers my question. I wonder what happened to the Olympic's Hull, however I will be sure to look up on that in your Book emoticon

About your book, would you please say a few things about your book on my forum? I have posted a bit of information about it there.

]Olympic Book Thread

That is the link. Thank you for all you have mentioned about Olympic, It's harder to learn about the two sister ships, and I admire that you have books about them that we may all use to gather more about the almost forgotten sisters. At least Titanic gives them life, or I like to beleive.

I would also like to mention that I have come across your "Hospital Ships" website, long before I saw it in your signature. (Type in "Britannic swimming pool" in Google Search images, and a link to your "F Deck" information coverage is provided by the engine). Which is extraordinary!! your webiste has put so much of my curiosity in regards to the Britannic at ease! Great Work. I will need to mention that in my "Recommended Sites Section" I am to create. I really needed to let you know that you have done a wonderful job, your hard work is reflected rather well through the website.

I also see the need to mention other sites that you have created, that I find myself rather fond of as far as research is concerned.

James

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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Hello James,

Good to hear from you again. I do hope that you find the book's information of interest. I know you understand that it is there that I can best relate my research, and it's a pity I can't find more time for these online forums. But, I had all my sources at my command when I was writing those books. It's in the RMS Olympic book where I've added most material pertinent to this discussion.

I'll happily post some material about the Olympic book on your forum -- do I need to register seperately for that forum as well?

I'm very pleased that you liked the Britannic website, although I should clarify that it's Michail Michailakis' site. It's just that myself and Remco Hillen, and others, contribute articles to it, but Michail owns the site and puts in an amazing amount of work -- reflected in his website, as you've said.

I must say that the only website I have put up, so far, is my [sign in to see URL] website. It's very basic so far but I hope to improve it with more research. It does have some information about my books on it. You may also find J. Kent Layton's book, available through his Atlantic liners website (see my links section) of interest as it covers the Lusitania and her sisters, Olympic and her sisters, and Imperator and her sisters.

Thanks for your kind words.

Best wishes,

Mark.

---
Mark Chirnside,
UK.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0752428683/qid=1058710005/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_0_3/026-7843481-4858066
http://www.hospitalshipbritannic.com/menu.htm
Aug/6/2005, 7:23 pm Link to this post Send Email to Mark Chirnside   Send PM to Mark Chirnside MSN
 
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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


I would find anything related to the Titanic, that is well written of interest! So It shouldn't be surprising that I will want to read your books, as well as ask about them.I understand that it can be difficult to explain something when it is more detailed in your book, no worries. I will be sure to look up any questions I may have, and ask what I do not find. Thank you for your refrences in the book, so I can find the pages that answer my questions.

That would be great. As for registration, No, you just post. lol, easy does it haha.

I have been to the discussion forum on the "hospital ships" website as well, and have read some articles and such. Nice contributions regardless! As for your website, [sign in to see URL] , I have been to that one as well. What I enjoyed most about it was the interview in regards to the conspiracy theory. I have receieved questions both on the forum and in real life about that, and I just cannot beleive people find the need to even ask. It clearly is silly, however I do see some truth to the facts. I've seen the "Atlantic Liners" book as well (Not that I own it). It seems interesting, and I suppose could provide ideas where competition between liners and lines comes into play.

Anytime.

James

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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


Psst Mark, check your PM box, I've got a question for you emoticon

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Aug/30/2005, 4:04 pm Link to this post Send Email to Mr Titanic   Send PM to Mr Titanic MSN Yahoo
 
Mark Chirnside Profile
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Re: Where is the Olympic now?


If you'll check your e-mail, you'll find I replied this morning when I got an e-mail notification that I had received a new PM.

I wrote to the e-mail specified by your answer machine, NeonCityTM4@[sign in to see URL] , because it said your inbox was full.

Best wishes,

Mark.

edited by Mark Chirnside, Aug/30/2005, 5:00 pm


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